Monday, November 10, 2008

Obama Believes in Separate but Equal?

Obama Believes in Separate but Equal?
The recent Obama win has everyone cheering for the enormous step our country has taken to recognizing the ignorance of discrimination based on race, but it has heightened the awareness that many Americans can’t seem to get around the discrimination based on sexual orientation. California’s Proposition 8 is legislation to specifically ban same sex partners from marrying. In essence, the California Supreme Court ruled that providing anything other than marriage for same sex couples would be a means of discrimination – a separate, but equal status, if you will – that does not jive with what America is about. Yet, California couldn’t accept that ruling. They invested over $74 million toward the issue and voted on the very day we elected our first African American President, to outlaw marriage by same sex partners. The ads for Proposition 8 depicted scare tactics showing teachers forced to teach same-sex education in elementary school and religious leaders charged by the state to forcibly marry gay couples. Neither scenario is real. The truth is that supporting equality for all Americans doesn’t erode family values; on the contrary, it enhances family values; the value that should be part of every American family to believe that ALL men/women in this country are equal in the eyes of the law. Sadly, even our President-elect who is enjoying the very concept of ‘all men created equal’ has repeatedly mentioned that he supports gays having equal protections under the law and an institution similar and equal to marriage, but not marriage. How does a black man who required ALL Americans to pump their brakes on discrimination and old school ignorance fix his mouth to say such a thing? I’m disappointed at best and disgusted with the hypocritical belief that discrimination based on race is now viewed as dated and ignorant, but prejudice surrounding same-sex relationships is fair game. Regardless of what your religious beliefs are, gay Americans are not asking you to join them in bed; they are asking that you allow them the SAME rights as every other American. Gay parents don’t want same sex education taught in public elementary schools as much as ANY parent wants sex taught to their children in elementary schools. The state cannot FORCE a religious institution to go against their beliefs to unite gay couples in their sanctuary – know what the facts are people. Here it is 2008 and we’re having some statewide battle on whether we should allow consenting adults to marry simply because they don’t look like the picture of the couple we have in our heads. It rings of the black/white marriage bans that plagued our nation in years passed. Marriage for same sex partners is NOT an issue that should be left to the states, it is an issue that should be approved at a federal level and incorporated into our present marriage laws. The issue does not open the flood gates on marrying animals and inanimate objects; those ignorant comments are so off-base I can’t begin to comment on them. If gays across the country will not be offered EQUAL rights to our straight brethren then we should be offered a cut in our tax liability to compensate for our lack of equal rights. At a time when we should be celebrating an Obama win, it’s disappointing to hear the very man flying on the wings of equality playing a different tune when it comes to marriage by same sex couples.

On Blast
Either you take a stand for something or you’ll fall for anything. In what way does the marriage of same-sex couples affect the values of heterosexual families? As a straight man/woman, why do you care if same-sex consenting adults marry?

Keep passin’ the open windows…


Caspar608 said...

Honey, he is entitled to his own opinion. And he has formed his opinion based upon his own spiritual/"moral" beliefs. That doesnt make him a hypocrit, it makes him the majority of people in this country who feel the same way as he does. Including quite a few gay folks, matter of fact.

Cocoa Rican said...

I'll have to agree to disagree this time Cas...
Moral/spiritual and religious beliefs aside, you either believe in equality for all or you don't. Separate, but equal doesn't count...and preaching what amounts to anti-miscegenation - well of the gender kind - isn't cute in '08

Caspar608 said...

sorry, the kids were killing each other, I'm back....

civil rights for people of color should not be compared to the gay rights/marriage conondrum for several reasons:
1) gays were never prevented from drinking at the same water fountains eating at the same lunch counters; or riding in the front of the bus simply because they were GAY. Blacks were prevented from doing all of the above because of the color of their skin, NOT because who they were sharing their beds with at night or in the middle of the afternoon.
if you were black and gay, but in the closet, you still were barred from eating, drinking or riding where whites did. but it wasnt because you were gay.
2) interracial marriages were based upon color of skin and the thought that blacks were inferior to whites therefore race mixing was prohibited in redneck hickvilles, not whether or not the couple would have sex, because that was a GIVEN. race mixing was a horrifying concept to some.
3) interracial couples would eventually procreate leading to the eradication of the rednecks who made it illegal for blacks to marry whites.

I can understand why people get so riled up about comparing the Civil Rights Movement to the Gay Rights Cause - one movement dealt with the obvious (color of skin), the other cause deals with who you are attracted to or who you choose to have an intimate relationship with.
Correct me if I am wrong, but, besides "happy" the term 'gay' does mean you attracted to folks of the same sex, right?
While a person of color can still be discriminated against today for fair and equal housing, unless a white gay man is a 'stereotypical' gay man and the landlord is a homophobe, nine times out of ten the gay man who shows no obvious signs of being gay would receive housing before a person of color. Thats where the lines get blurry, and thats where Civil Rights activists become resentful of Gay Rights activists when they compare their struggle to the black/latino community as a whole. The general consensus is "DONT JUMP ON OUR BANDWAGON, FIND YOUR OWN!"

Quite frankly, I want everyone to be happy. More than half of all marriages in this country lead to divorce. Gay marriages will either stabilize that number or increase it. Whatever the case may be, I do not think it is fair to brand Obama a hypocrit after the fact. He was pretty clear about his beliefs before we voted for him. Give him a chance before you condemn him for not joining a cause he cannot empathize with...yet : )

Caspar608 said...

this isnt about being "cute" in '08...this is about an agenda that our President elect needs to understand before making a decision.

What are the facts...?
How will gay marriage affect straight couples who choose to co-habitate and forego marriage because they do not want to have a "traditional" union? Will unmarried straight couples have the same rights as married gay couples or will this force unmarried straight couples to marry in order to have the same protections under law as married gay couples? Isn't this what the Domestic Partnership act was created for?

As far as spiritual/religious/biblical influences are concerned...don't you think many gay people already feel they struggle with themselves and therefore know the act of fornicating is a "sin" - regardless of the gender of the co-fornicator? Do you think churches should have to accept gay marriages per governmental law? should the said churches be forced to recognize the marriages simply because the government has deemed gay marriages acceptable?

Like I said, I want everyone to be happy. ANd the God I know loves us all and wants us to be with HIM in the after life. But when it comes to a traditional event like marriage, you must realize that there are people in this country who will not have their traditional values, beliefs, morals and ideology exploited by government or anyone else. Regardless of what they have going on in their own backyards or closets.

This is going to be the next big issue for our country after we get the economy in order and our boys out of Iraq.

I have faith in my fellow Americans and believe every problem/issue has a solution. We can work it out together.

So, when's YOUR wedding? : )

Darius T. Williams said...

Wow...honestly, it shouldn't have anything but a positive effect on our country - but I'm speaking from the inside out here...not the outside in.

Caspar608 said...

I concur that anytime two people love each other and wish to be in a lifelong commitment it is a good thing for our country.

However, I believe the gays rights platform should stand alone. For the sake of not pissing anyone off, and also to show the country that the cause is powerful all by itself without comparison to race relations and the struggle that brought us to where we are right now - a country with a mixed race President. Therefore all points,pros and cons, need to be looked at and thoroughly considered before legalizing anything in our nation.

It doesnt make any sense to attack or question Obamas ethics, convictions, beliefs or opinion on the issue after he made his position on gay marriage abundantly clear before you walked to the voting machine and pulled the lever. That kind of sort of makes the voter a hypocrit. I personally object to his views on partial birth abortion, but I voted for him and I trust his judgment.

By all means, fight for your cause and bang the drum loudly so all the nation will hear. But also understand that if you believe strongly enough in your cause, let it be THAT cause alone without comparison to another.

Let your beliefs be that passionate and powerful that there is no need to compare it to anyone else's battle.

"The Battle is Not Yours...Its the Lords" - Yolanda Adams

bLaQ~n~MiLD said...

Imma have to side with Caspar on this one Cocoa. Sowey. Still luv ya...


That Dude Right There said...

Caspar I have to agree and disagree with you on this one. While Obama is entitled to his own opinion, his opinion may not be the best one or the one that provides equality for the people of the country.

And maybe the Civil Right Movement should be called the Racial Civil Right Movement. Any rights movement that involved a civil right or privilege is a Civil Rights Movement. And I believe that the right to marry should be extended to all Americans. If not, then civil marriage should be abolished.

That Dude Right There said...

And as far as this passage goes: "Will unmarried straight couples have the same rights as married gay couples or will this force unmarried straight couples to marry in order to have the same protections under law as married gay couples?"

Unmarried straight couples at least have the option to get married. Gay couple don't have that privilege.

Mr. Jones said...

I'm not sure where I stand on gay marriage.

Caspar608 said...

"...civil marriage should be abolished"....?

That Dude Right There... your feeling or opinion that civil marriage for straight couples should be abolished - despite the fact that it has been an institution/given/holy union for thousands of years for just about every culture - because gay folks cannot marry - is not the solution to a problem that affects the gay community. And this is what I meant when I said it is not very wise for the gay community to tie civil rights for persons of color to gay rights as it concerns marriage. The gay community already enjoys the rights of everyone else in this country, but, unforunately...the majority of this country feels that marriage - the traditional institution of marriage - is reserved for a man and a woman.
The CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT was called the civil rights movement for a very specific purpose back in the sixties; you cannot change the name of the movement after the fact...the same way you cannot abolish marriage for straight people. Further, gay folks were not as open about their personal lives THEN as they are NOW, and even if they were, you can best believe they would not have been included in marches and demonstrations with people who marching and demonstrating in protest of those who were hosed down by the fire department or attacked by police dogs those whose innocent children were blown to bits in church bombings; or those who were hung and castrated for looking at white women; or those who were murdered for the COLOR OF THEIR SKIN or those who couldnt drink from the same water fountains, use the same bathrooms, ride int he same area of the bus, use the same entrance or sit at the same counter as a WHITE PERSON...that is what the civil rights movement was about, Dude. Fair and Equal treatment FOR PEOPLE OF COLOR. Jim wanting to marry John, or Sally wanting to marry Jane would have not only been considered and abhorration to the churches who supported the civil rights movement, but most people would have said homosexuality was a private matter.

The Gay Rights Marriage movement will never gain the momentum it needs unless the platform pertains solely to the Gay Rights Marriage Movement and there is no link to the Civil Rights Movement for people of color. There is a difference. A huge difference between the two causes...and this is why you will have straight people of color who are and will continue to be extremely resentful when the parallels are drawn between the two movements in an effort to gain sympathy and understanding for the legalization of gay marriage.

It is very unfortunate you feel everyone should have to suffer through the abolishment of a traditional institution between a man and a woman simply because everyone does not support or agree with the legalization of gay marriage. I can guarantee you that if that suggestion to abolish all marriage were ever brought to the table in an effort to push for the legalization of gay marriage, the opposition would be so intense that the gay community would find themselves pushed back in time where people had very little tolerance.

How about keeping things simple by using the platform "I LOVE, THEREFORE I AM"

Cocoa Rican said...

Absurd…that’s all I can say. The Civil Rights Movement has nothing – NOTHING – to do with racial civil rights alone. It has everything to do with civil rights – period. If the civil rights of any group are being compromised then the movement has the responsibility and call to action.

The plight of the Black/White population with regard to marriage in pre-1970s is a mirror image of the same sex marriage debacle of today.

Whether an issue makes folks uncomfortable or whether the majority of Americans feel that the tradition of male/female marriages sets their hearts at ease doesn’t matter. Equal rights cannot wait for a group – even if that group is the majority – to become comfortable with an issue before equality can be attained.

Marriage has nothing to do with religion. It is a legal matter. Churches cannot be forced to perform marriages of same sex individuals if the said church’s beliefs are contradicted by those ceremonies. Knowing is half the battle.

The fear tactics that say that legalizing marriage between same sex couples would:
** Force schools to teach same sex education
** Force churches to marry same sex couples

If anyone is going to stand behind the belief that adults of the same sex should not be allowed to marry, then they should also have the courage to admit that they are just plain out AGAINST equality for all people. More importantly, any straight person should question why they give a FUCK whether two consenting adults would want to marry in the first place when said marriage does NOT involve them.

** An as an important aside, the gay community SUFFERS death and mutilation from the beginning of time for being gay. Feel free to Google gay hate crimes in the U.S. and bring a cup of coffee, so that you can spend a few hours reading this year’s tragedies alone!

For a great article I read recently, go to….

Cocoa Rican said...

And lastly Caspar...for someone who supports the fight for equality for all - or has said they do - it's difficult to see that from three enormous comments made to support denying rights to the gay community. This is one of those times that you may want to follow my advice that if we don't have nothing good to say....well, you get the point.

Caspar608 said...

And this is where you have a hard time dealing with other people's opinion's when they do not support your agenda. (a common LEO trait).If you don't want the opinions, viewpoints, personal feelings of other readers, friends, bloggers, whatever, THEN DON'T ASK FOR IT. Saying that I should keep my opinion to myself is ABSURD. When haven't I supported you anyway? Please pump the brakes on whatever it is you are attempting to do in regards to my thoughts and my opinions by twisting what I say.

Where did I say I did not support the gay rights movement? Are you kidding me? Because I actually put some thought into my lengthy responses, you then say (per your follow up post) that your straight brethren have single digit IQ's? As you can see in the multiple posts, one of your other readers (a gay black man from what I can gather) actually agreed with my position. Do you have a problem with him as well? I have plenty of nice things to say, as a matter of FACT, I always do when and where it concerns YOU. But in this instance, you need to take a step back and really think about what you just said to ME in your comment.
Race and Sexuality have NOTHING to do with each other. That is my opinion. One Movement has nothing to do with the other Movement. That is my opinion, which is shared by many, many people of all walks of life. Those of us who could care less about being politically correct really do not have a problem with expressing our opinions.
I suggest you go back and read my comments before you talk ish and say I should do this, that or the third or that I claim I do this, that or the third and think again about what it is you really should say in response to my comments.

One last thing...DNA, genetics, science are factors that can be used to justify the many reasons WHY gay marriage should be LEGALIZED. I expected you to figure that out for yourself, but since you went on the defensive and told me what I should say or not say, well, then maybe my expectations of you are a little too high.

Insult my intelligence again, for all the world to see, and its OVER.

Word up.

Caspar608 said...

FURTHERMORE, if you expect people not to give a FUCK about whether or not gay people have the "right" to marry, then please do not look for the support of the same people who should not give a FUCK... whose support is ultimately needed to help make it happen. I am talking about all people, not just gay people, who will pressure politicians into making this a law. You keep having temper tantrums like the one you had, it AIN'T going to happen.

Or maybe, if GOD wants it to happen, and if it is the will of GOD for it to happen, then it WILL happen. Or do YOU not give a FUCK about that either?

You kill me sometimes.

Caspar608 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Cocoa Rican said...

Meanwhile the On Blast simply asked...As a straight man/woman, why do you care if same-sex consenting adults marry?

Caspar608 said...

I CARE... because I know this guy who was my oldest friend and was my dearest friend up until the point he came OUTSIDE his face and tried to play me for a retard by telling his audience that I have a single digit IQ because I refuse to join one movement to another movement that has enough juice of its own...and despite all of that I STILL believe he should live happily ever after. But, like I said, you are not going to get the support you need from EVERYONE to LEGALIZE gay MARRIAGE unless you present it in a way that has nothing at all to do with the Civil Rights Movement.

People are born gay. According to scientific research, gay men and gay women have brains that are shaped like brains of the opposite sex. The platform should be: I WAS BORN GAY. SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE PROVES THAT I WAS BORN GAY. THIS IS WHO I AM. HE or SHE is WHO I LOVE. I LOVE, THEREFORE I AM. LEGALIZE GAY MARRIAGE. NOW.

The movement, the passion, the power is such that you do not have to reference a movement from the
60's to justify what the gay community WANTS and NEEDS now. LOVE SHOULD BE THE FORCE BEHIND THIS MOVEMENT. Love never fails.

Understand now, Einstein?

That Dude Right There said...

Lord, have mercy.

Mr. Jones said...

**grabs popcorn and comfy chair**

Caspar608 said...

The Lord I believe in was, is and always will be merciful.